June 28, 2023

Transcript below

This June, the Human Rights Campaign declared a state of emergency for LGBTQ+ people for the first time in the organization’s 40-year history. And unfortunately, students are not immune to the dangerous anti-queer assaults, legislatively, or physically.

Because of the seriousness of these attacks, we've published a Know Your Rights guide for LGBTQ+ students' on gender, dress codes, self-expression, and more, so students are fully aware of their right to be themselves in school.

On this episode of Thinking Freely, you'll hear from:

Produced and hosted by: Nehemiah Bester, communications strategist, ACLU of Maryland

This podcast was recorded on Piscataway land.

TRANSCRIPT

00:01 – 00:06
Nehemiah Bester
What's the school's responsibility to ensure the protection of its LGBTQ students?

00:06 – 00:25
Carlos Childs
They're responsible for everyone making sure that no student is feeling like their rights are being violated or whether they're being persecuted just for their sexual orientation or gender identity. So, the school has to protect all students, not just the ones that they agree with.

00:34 – 00:59
Nehemiah Bester
You listening to Thinking Freely with the ACLU of Maryland. The show that talks about what's happening politically in Maryland, from the courts to the streets and everywhere in between, I'm your host Nehemiah Bester. Around this same time last year, one of my colleagues, Alicia Smith, said something that I thought was seriously profound, “Pride is more than a month, it's a mentality and like any mentality.”

00:59 – 01:24
Nehemiah Bester
And like any mentality, it determines how you interpret and respond to certain situations. LBGTQ+ rights have been under siege for a time, with some progress here and there but also some setbacks. Including the Human Rights Campaign declaring a state of emergency for LGBTQ+ people this June for the first time in the organization’s 40-year history.

01:24 – 01:56
Nehemiah Bester
And unfortunately, students have not been immune to the dangerous anti-queer assaults, legislatively or physically. According to the national ACLU, more than 400 anti-LGBTQ+ bills have been introduced this year alone, as waves of homophobia and transphobia threaten the safety of queer community members. In addition, too many intellectual spaces where diversity and curiosity are celebrated and respectfully contested are being denied altogether.

01:57 – 02:28
Nehemiah Bester
Entire books deemed too controversial are being banned from the shelves of libraries. Imagine a world where Fahrenheit 451, the dystopian novel by Ray Bradbury is actually taking place, but instead of burning books, they’re being thrown in a more figurative fire. Amanda Gorman’s poem The Hills We Climb, read at President Joe Biden’s inauguration, was recently banned in Florida for its “gender ideology and indoctrination.”

02:28 – 02:56
Nehemiah Bester
While All Boys Aren’t Blue by George M. Johnson was banned in Maryland’s Wicomico County because of its story of a Black man growing up queer. When communities are most harmed the ACLU of Maryland’s mentality is to respond. The ACLU of Maryland offers a Know Your Rights program that informs Marylanders of their rights, so they can make informed decisions, be good witnesses when violations occur, and know their options for taking action.

02:57 – 03:28
Nehemiah Bester
We just published on our website a Know Your Rights on LGBTQ+ students’ rights at school, including dress codes, gender, self-expression, and more. So that students in school are fully aware that they have the right to be themselves. Go to aclu-md.org/kyr to learn more. To tell us more about this is Carlos Childs. Carlos is the ACLU of Maryland’s Regional Community Organizer for Southern Maryland.

03:28 – 03:40
Nehemiah Bester
He was raised in Waldorf, Maryland and for years, he has been a Southern Maryland activist working on legal justice reform, building worker power, advancing environmental and housing rights, and more.

03:43 – 03:44
Nehemiah Bester
Carlos, thanks so much for joining me today.

03:45 – 03:52
Carlos Childs
Thank you, thank you. Always glad to be here. That's an amazing statement for me. I feel, I feel accomplished now.

03:53 – 04:19
Nehemiah Bester
Okay, great. You've done a lot of really, really great work. And so, as you know, it's Pride month. And, you know, we put together one of our KYR (Know Your Rights) content pieces so that LGBTQ students here in Maryland are fully aware of their rights at school when it comes to, you know, dress code, their own self-expression, gender identity, you name it.

04:19 – 04:28
Nehemiah Bester
So, let's just jump right into it. Let's talk about freedom of expression first. What should students know about how they can express themselves in school?

04:29 – 04:48
Carlos Childs
Yeah, the first thing is that one, every student has the right to express themselves in that it's not just some right that we just say, oh yeah, you have the right to do that. It even goes to your constitutional right and your First Amendment right, which allows me to express your views and identity through your clothing as well.

04:49 – 05:11
Carlos Childs
And just letting students know that, hey, just because you are LGBTQ or you want to have a shirt or pants or any type of clothing item that expresses your pro LGBTQ pro political brand and stuff or whatever. As long as it's within the actual dress code of the school, you're free to do you and wear what expresses you to your peers and just that.

05:12 – 05:24
Nehemiah Bester
So, it's more than just like, you know, political things that you can wear like you can if you say, for example, if somebody were to wear, like a Pan-African flag like that would be acceptable in school?

05:25 – 05:38
Carlos Childs
Oh, definitely. Yeah. If you wanted to wear a Pan-African flag, if you if you want to wear a t-shirt with a whole bunch of cartoon characters on it, you can. It's nothing stops you as long as it's within the actual school dress code itself.

05:39 – 06:02
Nehemiah Bester
Okay. Okay. So, staying on dress codes, you know, I remember in school, you know, you know, things like spaghetti straps were banned. No, tank tops, no sandals. Everything had to be fingertip length. What were some of the things that you remember and what should students be aware of when it comes to dress code, particularly when it's based on gender?

06:02 – 06:29
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah, definitely. I remember the same exact things. If you had a spaghetti strap making sure that it's like two fingertip length on and make sure that you can put your hands down, that your pants or your dress comes close to that. It's really, I mean, but even on top of that, as like all of us probably saw, it was majority Black girls and brown girls who actually faced the actual like repercussions of that.

06:29 – 06:52
Carlos Childs
It would be telling them, oh, your tights are too tight. You can’t wear x, y and z where their white peers can. But specifically for LGBTQ related students is that federal law prohibits any public school from mandating gender specific dress codes. So, if you identify as male and you want to wear a dress, a school cannot say, whoa, hold up that doesn't fit with our gender stereotype of what you should wear.

06:52 – 07:12
Carlos Childs
And then also making sure that people feel comfortable in whatever clothes that they're in and making sure that a school cannot tell you that that you have to fit whatever their image of your gender is or what they conceive your gender to be.

07:12 – 07:36
Nehemiah Bester
So, like saying, like with that topic on dress codes, you know, we touched on it a bit, but something I wanted to ask you. What about when it comes to transgender and gender nonconforming students, you know, not you know, not only on dress code, but, you know access to things like restrooms and locker rooms. What are what are what are their rights there?

07:36 – 08:03
Carlos Childs
Yeah, definitely. As far as clothing is the same as before, you have the right to wear whatever fits your gender identity or your gender expression and whatever makes you feel comfortable as well within the actual dress code itself. But as far as like locker rooms, restrooms, we want every LGBTQ+ trans non-binary person to know that they have the right to use the locker room or restroom that fits within their gender identity.

08:03 – 08:27
Carlos Childs
It's not a thing just because you are perceived a certain way or that the school would like it to be a certain way that you have to actually conform to that. And that also to let them know that you should not under any circumstances be forced to use the nurse's bathroom, the staff bathroom or some or some secluded kind of separate but equal version of what a school may be trying to do for you.

08:28 – 08:47
Nehemiah Bester
Right. I remember there was a lot of that going on, you know, back when I was in high school ages ago. But I know as long, as long as I've been in school, you know, I wanted to be in and participate in clubs and extracurricular activities, you know, because of the community aspect, the belonging that comes with that.

08:48 – 09:03
Nehemiah Bester
Of course, my experience as cisgendered man is different from LGBTQIA individuals. But talk to me about student led groups. You know, GSA's and other spaces where students can find community. What does the federal law say about that?

09:03 – 09:48
Carlos Childs
Yeah, definitely. Well for all the people listening a GSA stands for Gay-Straight Alliance, depending on where you live at, and you may have them in your middle school or your high school. But what it really is, is a non-curricular club that that brings LGBTQ+ and cis straight students together to work on things, fun things like building community, working towards stopping the discrimination that LGBTQ students face within the school and also just creating like a safe space for the students to come together to talk, just have you know, be a kid and not and not feel that like systemic pressure.

09:49 – 10:12
Carlos Childs
And the kind of in the stereotype of oh, straight students and like LGBTQ students aren't, they don't mix or there's issues between them. To really show no we're all students and we all care about each other, and we just want to see each other treated well. And as far as like federal law is concerned, and the federal law actually prohibits public high schools from banning or not allowing noncurricular clubs from treating GSAs differently.

10:12 – 10:34
Carlos Childs
So, if you're a student and you want to set up a GSA, a school cannot tell you, oh, no, you cannot do this specifically, but they let other non-curricular clubs exist as well. So, we always tell people is if you want to start one, feel free to talk to a trusted staff member or teacher and then start the process to actually set one up.

10:34 – 10:50
Nehemiah Bester
On a more serious, what should students do if they feel like they are being harassed or threatened? Sort of like the opposite of what you just summarized. What's the school's responsibility to ensure the protection of its students?

10:51 – 11:20
Carlos Childs
Yeah, well, first thing, if any student is being harassed, bullied, threatened, all of it. First thing you want to do is tell a trusted adult school staff member, make sure you take detailed notes of it yourself. Write it down, document what date this happened, time, and also tell a trusted friend. Because the last thing we want to see is when you bring it to the school that they say, okay, well, this is just you saying that. It's like no, other people can back the story up as well.

11:21 – 11:57
Carlos Childs
And as far as what the public schools are responsible for, they're responsible for, one, making sure that all students are in a safe learning space that no student is feeling like their rights are being violated or that they're being persecuted just for their sexual orientation or gender identity. But also, they're responsible for responding to harassment, to people misgendering them, invasive questions, and also intentionally detonating by like not just staff, but also other students or parents as well.

11:57 – 12:14
Carlos Childs
And that also no school can retaliate against a parent or student just for filing a complaint about discrimination. So, the school has to protect all students, not just the ones that they agree with.

12:15 – 12:40
Nehemiah Bester
Okay. So, on the subject of protecting all students, what about when it comes to like events that all students want to attend, like, you know, proms and homecoming, graduation, you know, those large-scale events? Are students allowed to wear whatever they want to these events? Are they allowed to bring whoever they want to these events, regardless of gender?

12:41 – 13:03
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah, definitely. Well, first of all, as far as it goes to like dress code for these functions, you 100% have the right to wear whatever makes you feel most comfortable. If you identify as female and you want to wear a suit and vice versa. For people who identify as like male, you can and feel no repercussion for it.

13:03 – 13:21
Carlos Childs
It should not be to were you have to conform to as before, a specific gender stereotype. And that even goes for if you want to run for prom king and queen. That you cannot say just because you're running for prom king you have to wear suit or prom queen you have to wear a dress.

13:21 – 13:45
Carlos Childs
You can wear whatever makes you feel most comfortable. And to the topic of who you would like to bring with you, as long as they would be allowed at any other school event, you can bring them, no matter if it's if they identify as male, female, nonbinary, transgender, whatever. It's whoever you feel most comfortable sharing that moment with.

13:46 – 14:20
Nehemiah Bester
And the other thing I wanted to ask you about was privacy in school. I feel like this comes up often, you know, because, you know…are schools allowed to disclose a person's LGBTQ status? Quite plainly. You know, I think a lot of the excuses there comes down to, you know, like paperwork and documentation, writing things down. But as we know, this can out a person and we don't want that. So, are schools allowed to do that? Are they allowed to disclose a person's LGBTQ status?

14:21 – 14:55
Carlos Childs
No. First of all no school should just be in the habit of just, well one, just asking students flat out, hey, how do you identify or are you LGBTQ+ and then using that against them. That's one wrong right there. But then the second thing is, two is that they do not, or they should not just out someone not even to classmates but to their parents as well without explicit permission from that exact student as well.

14:55 – 15:14
Carlos Childs
And it's not just that because you're in the closet towards your peers or parents, even if at school you're out, that does not give the school the right to actually say, oh, okay, well, since you're out at school, then we have a right to just tell your parents as well because they don't know.

15:14 – 15:44
Carlos Childs
Well, one, they may be putting you in an unsafe environment by doing that. And then two, they don't know personally who you have come out to or haven’t as well. And then also school faculty, students, peers overall should just this refrain from like asking people very invasive questions or kind of making appropriate comments when it comes to someone's sexuality or gender and things like that that really make it uncomfortable in an unwelcoming environment in school.

15:45 – 16:08
Nehemiah Bester
Right. Yeah, I love what you touched on because oftentimes, like, it's not just, you know, the school that, you know, can be potentially harmful, but also like that student has to go home every day. And if they're out, you know, they're not out to their parents or their loved ones or their family members, that creates you know, it's extremely problematic. And you can put them in further harm’s way.

16:08 – 16:31
Carlos Childs
You're definitely right. I mean, you can have you can have students who may leave their house, dressed a certain way when they go to school, change into something that makes them feel more comfortable. And then if you have a school who's just intentionally just telling the parents, oh, yeah, did you know that x, y, and z child is doing this? That like you said, you could be putting that out in a totally dangerous situation, going home.

16:31 – 16:50
Nehemiah Bester
Right. And I remember you and I were talking earlier this month and you brought up to me something I wasn't aware of, but this sort of this sort of rise of the LGBTQ+ banned books specifically in Calvert County. Can you explain it to me. Like what is going on over there?

16:51 – 17:17
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah. It's been it’s been a lot going on in Calvert County, actually. But yes, there has been as we’ve all seen, there's been just this weird national uptick in just anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment that we've seen in just different groups. And it's actually gone past as far as book banning, pass just LGBTQ+ but also trying to ban Black and brown books as well.

17:17 – 17:48
Carlos Childs
So, it's been a combination of stuff. But for Calvert County specifically, there's been one main bad faith actor group that has been pushing this this kind of argument of well, we need to protect all students from sexually explicit material. And in quotes, too, because they're using that and what they do is they'll go to board of Ed meetings and read just very selective passages that they can say, oh, this is sexually explicit without the context of the overall book itself.

17:49 – 18:26
Carlos Childs
So, what happened recently at the last school board meeting is that there was a policy that, or a public policy proposal that one of the school board members put up. And this wouldn't just ban banned books. This this policy proposal was made to stop books from even going on library shelves. What they had this do would set up multiple committees and different per school that would have to, one mandate that the entire committee before putting a single book on the shelf have to read that entire book.

18:27 – 18:51
Carlos Childs
So just imagine a public-school library that could have hundreds or thousands of books in it making a committee's job to read every single book before it even goes on the shelf, which is insane to think about. But it's even worse when you think about that, the main group that is pushing this policy, they've been on Facebook trying to crowdsource people to read books that they want to ban.

18:51 – 19:07
Carlos Childs
So, if they can't even do it on their own time, how do they expect people in a committee and work environment to read every single book before it's on the shelf? And from what a lot of activists and this awesome are saying, the main goal of this is, is to stop having books in the library at all.

19:07 – 19:45
Carlos Childs
So, I guess if they can't win the ban fight, we'll just not have public school libraries. And then also, for the books I guess that they are they're able to read that they consider sexually explicit that in high schools what they would have do is, is create a separate section of the library that has a sticker on each book that says sexually explicit and have it in a separated part of the library that if you're under the age of 18, which most high school students are, you would need a parent's permission to actually be able to either read or check out that book as well.

19:45 – 20:13
Carlos Childs
Then further putting barriers or putting people in or students in unsafe situations where they may not be able to tell their parents, hey, can you sign this, this permission slip for me to read a book related to like LGBTQ stuff. And then the other weird, weird part of it is that their definition of a library. Their definition of a library went from what we all know as like the library in the school to anywhere where books are kept for reading.

20:13 – 20:35
Carlos Childs
So, a teacher's classroom is also now considered a library. And one of the and one of the teachers actually who testified against this policy brought up, under this definition, what you're going to see is, so will we classify a student's locker as a library because books are kept there or will their bookbag be considered a library?

20:35 – 20:53
Carlos Childs
And is the school going to dedicate resources to people to go through every locker and every book back to make sure they don't have this quote-on-quote, sexually explicit books that they want to see? But one of the most positive things out of all of this was there at the last school board meeting when there was a public comment period, the one odd thing was they limited public comment to only 20 people.

20:54 – 21:24
Carlos Childs
So, the hearing was at 3:30pm. People were saying by like 1:30pm, all 20 slots had been filled. People already came to sign up. But the great thing was, out of all of the 20 public speakers, 17 of them were against this policy. It was a combination of teachers, parents, students, faculty, librarians came out to actually say no, this is horrible.

21:24 – 22:01
Carlos Childs
Like, like we are trained, we went to school and have the education to curate these are libraries. For you to go and try to work us is actually defeating the purpose of making sure that we not just have an inclusive learning environment, but we open students up to a myriad of books that not just go along with their family's preconceived notions, but also challenge some of their own thoughts to say, okay, maybe I read something and it makes me look at the world differently or set me up for a more diverse world and not just a closed off mindset of this is the only way things work.

22:01 – 22:30
Carlos Childs
So, in the end, the actual sponsor of the policy said that they're going to rework the policy, I guess, to make it not sound as bad as it is. So, everyone's gearing up now for the next school board meeting to do it all over again. And then the good thing is people on the ground were saying, hey, we will keep doing this until we, until you either stand down or they just vote the policy down.

22:31 – 22:53
Nehemiah Bester
Yeah, like this to me sounds like so archaic. Like when you just like limiting intellectual curiosity, because you want students and children to be able to challenge some of their own thoughts and behaviors, you know, especially when it comes to a system of institutionalism. You know, so that to me is, is just so so bizarre.

22:53 – 23:22
Carlos Childs
Exactly. And one of the things, too, is a lot of people pointed out if parents don't want their children to read a certain book, have a conversation with your child. That is not something where you should feel like I need a mandate so no child gets to read a certain book. And also, there are already policies and procedures in place to basically stop your child from being from being able to check out certain books.

23:22 – 23:38
Carlos Childs
So, they're doing this to kind of force for their own personal or religious ideology on all students when not taking into consideration, you should only have control over what your child reads. Not everyone else.

23:39 – 24:17
Nehemiah Bester
Right. You're the parent of the children you parent not everyone else’s. So one more question I wanted to ask you, Carlos. Probably one of the more important questions. But, you know, if the things that we mentioned today, we talked about, if they don't work. Like the system, as we know, a lot of times it hasn't worked for students, you know, but if it doesn't after, you know, these whoever listens to this, after these recommendations, how can they get help and how can the ACLU of Maryland assist in any of that help?

24:18 – 25:02
Carlos Childs
Yeah, well, we definitely always tell students, parents, whoever is listening, that one thing is no matter how you're being treated, we want you to one, stay calm and just comply with any direct orders that you're given from the school system. As long as it doesn't stop your ability to a challenge that later on, but also keep detailed documentation of anything that any paperwork that was that was given to you any phone calls you have with school staff members. Anything that a child is going through keep detailed documents of what happened, where, what time, all of it, and then also contact the ACLU of Maryland Complaint Line with all of your documentation as well.

25:02 – 25:31
Carlos Childs
And then also to let people know that any information that you that you share with us is 100% confidential. It stays between you and us. We do not share that out with people. And if we are able to, we will definitely provide different services and different recommendations on how to move forward, whether it be through conversations with the school system, legally, whether it be through community outreach, however.

25:32 – 25:45
Nehemiah Bester
Perfect love everything you just said. Last thing, if you've had, if you've gone to any of the Pride events this month, how have they been? Have you been enjoying any of the events that you've been at in the state?

25:45 – 26:11
Carlos Childs
Oh, yeah, they've been amazing. And I do want to shout out Charles County's Pride event we actually had. It's crazy, Charles County has been around for all these years. We actually just had our first Pride event in May. It was actually put on by the Health Department. It was a prep for our Pride. So, they were telling people how to get prep and know their health status, but also just engage with the different community members.

26:11 – 26:33
Carlos Childs
It was just amazing. We had a table there, but just seeing how many students were there, how many just parents, how many, just like not even LGBTQ members, but just like, just your cis straight, straight people who would say, hey, hey, I'm supporting because either my child's LGBTQ or my cousin is, or I'm not, no one that they know in their family is.

26:33 – 26:53
Carlos Childs
But hey, I'm just here to have fun and support a community within my county. So, I think that was probably the most amazing thing. And it was it was huge. I mean, I think they were talking about they were they did not know how many people would show up and from just what all of us saw around probably 1,000 people who showed up, they had a march to.

26:54 – 27:10
Carlos Childs
It was amazing and really powerful. And I know people are already talking about so, what's happening next year? How are we going to keep doing this? And I'm looking forward to, it's a Southern Maryland Pride that's going on in October as well, too. So, its definitely stuff going on throughout the year that I'm looking forward to.

27:10 – 27:26
Nehemiah Bester
Yeah, I'm so looking forward to the Pride Parade that is going on in Baltimore this weekend. So, and it's always great to be around community, you know, to learn from one another and also just to just to let some steam off like to have some fun, you know, like it's just great to be in the street.

27:26 – 27:34
Nehemiah Bester
But this has been a great conversation. Carlos, thank you so much for joining me. And appreciate all the great work that you've been doing.

27:35 – 27:43
Carlos Childs
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for providing this this space and really let out some really good messages and be in community. So, this is awesome. Thank you so much.

27:48 – 28:20
Nehemiah Bester
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Thinking Freely. If you liked this conversation, please feel free to leave a like, comment, and share to your networks. We also have a new Pride centered playlist available on our website and social platforms, so be sure to go check that out. And lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to Thinking Freely wherever you get your podcast. This show was recorded on Piscataway land. I’m Nehemiah Bester, the host and producer of Thinking Freely. Until next time, and happy Pride.

Thinking Freely, ACLU of Maryland's podcast, informs Marylanders about what's happening politically – from the courts to the streets – so they can get involved and realize a more equitable Maryland for all. 

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